"We beat ourselves up": Michelle Buteau recognizes our insecurities and reflects our sexiness back

Michelle Buteau is winning. She has the husband, the beautiful kids and a spectacular career in show business. And she has put in the work. When I talked to the comedian ahead of the release of her Netflix show, "Survival of the Thickest," she explained how this project has been years in the making.

"Comedians that can do other things and be multi-hyphenates, we've been working for free for years — whether it's writing sketches with your friends or hosting some stuff on a cable network," Buteau said. "By the time you do get to a position like this, you know how to call the shots and you know exactly what you want."

Buteau has been making waves on the comedy circuit for years leading up to her breakout Netflix special "Welcome to Buteaupia." She's also the host of "The Circle" and has starred in TV shows and movies, including "Awkwafina Is Nora from Queens," "Rick and Morty," "2 Dope Queens" and "Russian Doll." "Survival of the Thickest," which she produced, wrote and stars in as the lead Mavis, is inspired by her memoir and is out now on Netflix.

Mavis, who is loosely based on Buteau, is on the verge of a breakthrough in her career as a fashion designer, when she catches her boyfriend and business collaborator cheating with a younger, smaller version of her. As a result, Mavis blows up her life and has to start from scratch with a new apartment, in a new neighborhood, with a new possible love interest that must be vetted by her friend group, while she navigates her new career.

Mavis' two best friends guide her through this journey while trying to figure out their own drama. "Survival of the Thickest" stays committed to the funny, but also deals with serious issues like ageism, race, homophobia and body positivity.

Watch my "Salon Talks" episode with Michelle Buteau here or read a Q&A of our conversation below to learn more about the making of "Survival of the Thickest," why she sees flaws as part of life's journey and how dads like me can better support our wives.

The following conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Welcome, Michelle Buteau, the brilliant actor, writer, producer and hilarious comedian. How's it going?

You forgot mother, daughter, taxpayer.

Mother's a big title. I see the stuff that my wife does and I couldn't imagine.

I know y'all can't, but we can because it's real life and if we don't do it, nobody else will. 

What do you say to dads who want to be better at assisting their wives? Because I feel like as a father, I'm the assistant.

I'd say read the room. Read the room more often. Because I think a lot of guys, if you're in this heteronormative relationship, you just assume that it's going to be done because she's always doing it. But it would be nice to think three steps ahead. Like, is the laundry done? Are they going to eat? What are they going to eat later? They might need something to drink. Check it out. 

Also, their development. Talk to them about something different. Take them somewhere. Plan a family day. Do all that stuff. Even with the bath time. As soon as the dinner is done – I don't know who's cooking – whoever's cooking, the other person should clean. Let's go do a bath. I'll do the bath and also clean the bath. It's just thinking three to five steps ahead, which is what most women do, and that's why we tired. 

That's why when you walk down the street and someone's like, "Smile mama. You so pretty, smile." It's just like, "You want to come to my house and do what I do? Then you smile, b***h and shut up. Go tell your mom I said hi because you probably still live with her and collect checks." 

You wrote "Survival of the Thickest." You produced the show and you are the star. What does it feel like to put so much energy into something and then actually see it come alive?

It doesn't come out of nowhere. I've been doing comedy since 2001. I'm bad at math so you do it. I think it's over 20 years. Thank God I age well. Because Black don't crack, and beige don't age. Honestly, comedians that can do other things and just be multi-hyphenates, we've been working for free for years. Whether it's writing sketches with your friends or hosting some stuff on a cable network. We've actually been putting in the work for a long time, so by the time you do get to a position like this, you know how to call the shots and you know exactly what you want.

If you've been lucky like me and you've been working on other sets for TV and film, you could say, "Oh my God, I really like this," or, "Uh-uh, I wouldn't do that." I had a comedian named Wil Sylvince tell me a long time ago, "Just don't go to the comedy clubs where you're the best. Also go where you're the worst. Because you learn from people who are at the top of their game." That's what I love to do, and I feel like I really got that opportunity with this show. 

All four of our directors are boss a*s bitches. All women. Most of the heads of our department were women. My showrunner, Danielle Sanchez-Witzel, she's a boss a*s bitch. She's done a ton of TV and she's actually on the negotiation committee for the WGA right now. Like-minded individuals who only want to help you be your best, highest truest self is where it's at for me. I really can't f**k with anything else. That's why I don't talk to half of my family. Sorry. See you on Facebook.

You said something very interesting about coming up in the industry and doing the free work. I teach writing and when I talk to my students about being a writer and the grind and I talk about the free work, they look at me like I have three heads. This new generation, they're like, "I'm going to have my self-care and you're going to pay me for my time and my value."

Yes, it's precious.

Is that sustainable?

I don't think so. Look, I think it's a gray area. The reason why the Guild is fighting is because writers shouldn't have to do stuff for free, but you should be able to get to a place where you've had enough experience writing on your own and with your friends because you love it and you're so passionate about it and you really can't do anything else that you should just have ideas in your back pocket to bring to the table. Nobody cares about a pretty face or how many followers you have on social media in a writers' room. Because we need to get pages done. 

I was just in a TV writers' room. We all were ugly. 

You can't have pretty unless somebody know the ugly. It's not going to be funny if it's shiny all the time. I really appreciate ugly a*s writers. Because tell me what it is. Tell me what your life has been like. I think every story is important and valuable. How can we make it into a story for TV and elevate it?

Especially as books are being banned and this conversation about finding your truth about who you want to be and how you want to live is on the chopping block, which is just insane, these stories are way more important, more than ever, to put into the film and television. I'm really glad I got a chance to do that because my cast and crew is very diverse. We have Peppermint who's been on "Drag Race," and she is a Black trans woman. We had non-binary PAs and also actors. Everything I wanted to do, I got to do, which is very rare. But I had a vision. I'm a good person. I'm funny as f**k, so just let me do it.

Do you feel like being inclusive made the project take longer to come to life? I know sometimes when we want to do things our way, the industry tends to try to slow us down.

Definitely had to fight some fights, but I try not to look at it as a fight. It's just more of a debate. Definitely you have to stand up for yourself and know why you have this opinion. If someone's just saying, "Why does it have to be inclusive?" Then you have to give them the A, B, C to their X, Y and Z. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't just show up in a room and be like, "This is what I want," unless you're a Kardashian.

I think it's important for you to know why you want this done too. Now I don't think it slowed down the process in terms of doing the show. I don't think it slowed down my process in terms of being a performer. Because I do believe we can get our jobs done without being an a*shole. You can be an a*shole and work, but also you're going to age me, and that feels like emotional osteoporosis. I just feel like the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. I'm very inclusive with people in my life, so let's go ahead and build on this and do something really fun and funny and slightly educational.

One of the best parts of the show is that New York is a character and it's not just a basic, stereotypical version of New York that we've been spoonfed throughout our lives. In this beautiful diverse world, we have your character, Mavis. She is brilliant and talented. This is funny because when I say good stuff about Mavis, you get to own it. But if I say bad stuff about Mavis, you're like, "Oh yeah, Mavis needs to work on that."

It's funny because it really is language. We beat ourselves up for our bodies. Like, "Oh, this is a problem area." It's not, it's a human area. "Oh, I'm doing something bad." No, you're just on a journey to self-discovery and you're just doing something real. If you're not learning from your mistakes, then you might be an a*shole and you're not reading the room. You won't get anywhere in life and you'll wonder why. 

I play Mavis Beaumont. Mavis was my grandmother's name, and I love her so much, and she's one of the strongest women I know and was introduced to in my life. When I was thinking of character names, the spirit hit me. I was like, absolutely it's her. People always talk about, "Oh, when I'm 30 I need this to happen," or 35. But really for I think men and women, when you're approaching 40, your late 30s is a time for you to say, "OK, is this who I'm going to be?

"Am I going to be in this relationship with someone where I don't really know if they're the one, but they're really good on paper? Am I going to be stuck in this job where it's not fulfilling, but it's definitely keeping the commas in the bank account? Am I going to live in this neighborhood where I don't see myself reflected in the people, but at least I got a window in New York?"

Mavis, I can say, is cheated on and I really wanted her to be cheated on in the beginning. She's cheated on right away from her boyfriend. I've been cheated on before more than once in life. It was a jumpstart to the next part of life I was supposed to be living. I was just staying in this relationship stagnant because I thought it was good. 

You don't have to fight all the time for something to be bad. I didn't know. Most of the women in my family had been cheated on and they figured out how to pick themselves up and keep it moving. That's why I was like, "She going to be cheated on and she's got to figure out who she wants to be." Like I was saying, all those things that we think about in our late 30s before we head into being middle-aged. 

Her life blows up.

Yeah. When something happens in another chapter in your life, then you go to this other chapter and say, "OK, I guess it's time to do this because now I can't put this energy to something that's not working anymore. I'm going to put it to something that will only serve me." I think I really wanted my character, Mavis, to be a stylist because I definitely want to talk about body positivity and that fat people, disabled people and queer people are f**king sexy and we should see that on camera. Also, I really want her to be a stylist because I wanted a good a*s budget for the wardrobe. Don't give me that Old Navy couture money.

Plus, it was just a beautiful platform to say, "OK, how do we just make all these oddy bodies and fatty bodies just look and feel good?" Also, it's a job that your immigrant parents aren't going to understand. People know how to dress themselves. Why are you dressing people for a living? Being a stylist hit all the marks in terms of what it was like for me to tell my parents that I wanted to be a comedian. They left Jamaica and Haiti to come to America to give me a better life. I'm out here just telling d**k jokes in Express jeans. Bootcut jeans! What a mess.

This show will spark some serious conversations about how cheating on your partner can affect the family. You're not just cheating on the person you with, but you're breaking up friend groups, you are knocking off a parent's dreams and all of these different things happen. I was cheated on in high school and what I will say is when I got cheated on them back in high school, it felt a whole lot better being the person who cheated.

Because you cheated. Because you were young. Yes, of course. Full disclosure, I cheated in high school too. I didn't have the vocabulary to tell somebody this isn't working. I feel really seen and sexy by this other person. Later in life, absolutely you got to talk about that. 

But I really want to make this character Jacques, who's played by Taylor Sole, who's amazing and relatable. Yes, he cheats on his girlfriend, but he is also a hardworking Black man who's a photographer who's starting to get a lot of cachet, a lot of money, a lot of things thrown at him that he never had before. What does that look like? When the love is really there and you really truly just step out for this one mistake because you didn't talk about the stuff that was wrong in your relationship for so long. What does that look like? He wasn't getting the emotional intimacy that he really wanted from her. She was stuck in the day-to-day of, I cook, I clean, I touch a d**k, we keep it moving, we're good on paper, boom. It's like there's so much more in between, and what does a soulmate really look like? 

Also, even being in your late 30s, both of their families really wanted them together and work through it. There's this generational thing that happens with cheating too. Where we're just supposed to understand it. I think that stops at my generation where it's like, "Or we could choose better." 

I think having kids right now, a friend of mine, Jordan Carlos, we do a really hilarious podcast together called "Adulting." He told me, "When you have kids, you're going to learn how to parent yourself." I didn't know what he meant until I had to make some big decisions. I'm like, "Oh, now I'm an example for them."

You have a close friend in the television show named Kahlil. I like the dynamic in your relationship because you don't see that enough in television. I like how you guys hold each other accountable, and it's like a brother and sister thing. Was that intentional? Was that something that you felt like was missing from television or did it just automatically happen?

Yeah. The minute Netflix was like, "Let's turn your book into a show," the first character I wrote about was Mavis' best friend who was a guy that she's known since seventh grade. Because that is copy and pasted from my life. My friend Rashim has been my North Star. A lot of people have always asked us, "Are you guys together? Are you hooking up?" It's like, no, you could just love on each other. 

Many people that want to know about the show want to know when they're going to hook up. I'm like, "Look, men and women should be friends. We can learn a lot from each other." To say that "When are they going to hook up?" to me just felt hella misogynistic because you're just saying that women are good for one thing. At some point we got to hook up and that's not what it is. 

I thought it was really important to just showcase my New York and my world. That's why I have Khalil, who is the brother that she never wanted, and also Marley who's just like a rich b***h, older Black woman just out here like the Oracle taking names, kicking booty. If there was a Black girl reboot of "Wolf of Wall Street," that's who Marley is. It's so nice to have someone like that in your life too, just to be like, sis, you ain't doing it, so do it like this.

The show is hilarious. Everyone knows you are super funny. Are you on tour right now or are you preparing for another tour? Can we expect another special?

Oh my goodness. I would love to do another special. I feel like it's been a good long time since my last special. I love when comedians take three to five years for the next special. We don't need to be popping one out every year. That's crazy.

You got to live some life, right?

You got to live some life, have some experiences. I have been doing that and I'm going on tour this fall. It's going to be called "Full Heart, Tight Jeans." Because whenever somebody asks me how I'm doing, I don't like to be like, "Good, how are you?" I'm going to let them know. My heart is always full and my jeans are always tight, so I let them know. That's what I named the tour. It'll be very fun.

Where you going? What cities?

Good question. You can ask my agent. Sometimes I'm a pretty face. I'm no Christopher Columbus. I'm bad with directions. But I'm doing some America. Something in Canada and something in Europe. I actually have the same birthday as Amelia Earhart, which I always say we definitely are bold and bad with directions. Too soon.

You have two young kids, twins. You have this excellent advice column with Real Simple. Is having the advice column kind of like training to make sure you push your babies in the right direction?

Yeah, kind of. I really am going off of their personalities. There's definitely the dos and don'ts in general. But I think for them, I'm just going to go off of them. Which I think is really important. I don't think enough parents do. Because I'm realizing now they're such a representative of you. If they do something embarrassing, it's just like, that's on me. But it's not. Everything is happening for a reason, and they're just testing boundaries, and people still do that in adulthood, to be quite frank.

I love doing this modern manners column. But I didn't think it would be so hard. I realized that I'm really good at emotional relationship advice. The modern manners of it all is very interesting because America's big. America's like the Costco of countries. But for 330 million people, I don't know how you live your life in Oklahoma. I don't know what the Starbucks line is like.

Do people ask you questions sometimes you're like, "Wait, I can't answer this"?

I just try to answer the best of my ability. I just let them know what I would do and has that ever happened to me, personal stories too because this isn't about me telling you how to live. This is about us having a conversation. Even if I've never met you.

With my daughter, I do the yes method. I say yes to everything. If she wants ice cream at two o'clock in the morning, yes. If she wants to go to a waterpark in February, I'm like, f**k it, we're going to find one. I just say yes.

Why do you say yes? Did your parents always tell you no?

I just feel like I'm an old dad. She's three. All of my friends started having kids when they were like 15. She was born when I was 39. I'm kind of like a grandparent in my friend group. Grandparents tend to say yes more than regular parents. Technically I'm kind of like a grandparent. It pisses my wife off. However, it makes my daughter really happy.

I have a lot of opinions. You want them?

Please.

OK. That's going to work up until it's not. She's three now, but at 13 it's going to be like a phone, a car, a night out. A crop top. A heel.

What? A night out?

Yes, 13 is sleepovers. They want to assimilate and do what their friends do. It's just like, "Uh-oh we're going to figure out how to have a conversation." Honestly, you're never going to be the bad guy because she knows that she's loved. It's OK. You don't have to be good cop all the time.

I'm very scared of being the bad guy.

I know that, but she feels the love. She knows. You know when someone likes you, even if you don't even know how to say words. She knows that you love her and it's OK to be the bad cop. It is. Because then it's a shared experience with your wife and it's not like 90/10. Because it can't just be all on her. Because then she's never going to enjoy any of the yes moments either. You get all that, so it's unbalanced. I would say do it together.

"Survival of the Thickest" is currently streaming on Netflix.