"Insecure" star Yvonne Orji reflects on DMX and her destiny: "God's out here playing tricks on me"

Dreams fuel our existence. They give us the ability to envision ourselves in better careers, living in better homes, driving better cars and having the opportunity to provide our families with more than we had, even more than they actually need. But what happens when a dream is just a dream? When a person talks about doing something but never takes any steps toward turning any of those dreams into reality? Stand-up comic and actress Yvonne Orji identified people with that mentality as extremely dangerous and explain how urgent it is for us to stay away from them on the recent episode of "Salon Talks."

Yvonne Orji is most known for her HBO comedy special "Momma, I Made It!" in addition to playing Issa Rae's stylish, hyper ambitious best friend Molly on the hit HBO show "Insecure." Orji's betrayal of Molly earned her an Emmy nomination, which was just a part of God's plan and one of the many dreams she checked off her long list and wrote about in her bestselling memoir "Bamboozled by Jesus." 

"Bamboozled by Jesus" documents Orji's life through the lens of faith, biblical stories and witticisms. Orji's family had their own dreams of her becoming a doctor, but according to Orji, God had different plans. Orji writes that God told her to pursue a career in comedy. This vision could have seemed absurd because Orji didn't exactly have direct access to the comedy industry; however, she remained rooted in faith. Orji's initial break came when asked to participate in a beauty pageant. She listed her talent as comedy, because she listened to God, even though she had never did stand up before. Orji tore the show down, started booking gigs, and the rest is history. 

You can watch my "Salon Talks" episode with Yvonne Orji here or read a Q&A of our conversation below to learn more about "Bamboozled by Jesus," how she's keeping faith during the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes and her prediction for the future of television after Hollywood opens back up. 

 The following conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Congratulations on the book and the paperback publication because everyone doesn't get that. It caught me off guard because I didn't know how much I needed it at this particular time. Can you unpack the title for me?

Well, first of all, that's one of the biggest compliments. "It's a book that I didn't know I needed in this season." One, thank you. It's funny. You can do a lot of things in your life, and then the thing that is probably the most vulnerable or the most self-excavating, that's the thing that I'm like, "This will always be mine." You can be a wife, you can be a sister, but then when you become a mom, it's like "The baby is mine," and I feel like I birthed this baby. 

"Bamboozled by Jesus," the title, came because sometimes that's how I feel. Even though I know I'm in lockstep and in alignment with my destiny and with my purpose, sometimes I feel like God's out here playing tricks on me though. Because he'll tell me to do something, and one thing he knows that he has from me is my obedience, but that doesn't mean that my obedience doesn't come with questions. I'd be like, "Wait, wait, what are we doing? And why?"

He doesn't give me all the information. He doesn't give a lot of us all the information because I think if he did, we would never go forward doing the thing that we are supposed to do. If he was like, "I want you to be a comedian, but also for five to seven years you're going to be poor." I'll be like, "So then I guess I'm not going to be doing comedy." I'm like, "What are we doing? Why would I do this willingly?" Maybe it helps if you know when the end date is, like, "Oh, five to seven? Okay, I could pace myself." Maybe that would help, but then also maybe you'd be like, "Or I could get a job right now and never start this thing and be able to eat. Yeah, I'm not going to do comedy."

It doesn't sound fun.

It doesn't sound fun. But I live a very fun and fulfilled life now. In the process, I think that's what it is, the process bamboozles you. Because there's some moments where you're like, "Man, favor came through and I'm getting this opportunity and that . . . God is so good." And then you're like, in the next breath, you're just like, "Hey God, did you forget about me? Where you at? Remember when we was winning? We want more of that."

But you also, you don't cheat the work.

No.

You talk about the idea of faith and how faith and fear can't live in the same space, but it doesn't mean you could just sit back on your hands. You have to be active. You have to get up and do something. 

And sometimes you have to do something before you know what it is you're doing. Like in the book, I talk about two times, really, when I moved to New York. I bought a bus ticket and I signed up for a class. I had nowhere to live, but I was on that bus, you know what I mean? Because class starts in two days, so I'm going to still go to the class. I'm going to still go to the bus. 

While in the four hours it took me to get from PG County, Maryland, to Manhattan, I got a Facebook message from somebody who saw my Facebook message of "Anybody have a couch I can sleep on in New York?" And she was like, "Call me." And she was like, "You can sleep in my basement apartment." So I stayed rent-free in a basement apartment in New York for six months, but I was already on the bus. If I stayed in Maryland, like, "Oh man, no one responded to my [message]." I'd have missed a class. I bought the bus ticket. I bought the class. 

Then when I was coming to L.A., I stopped taking work as a wedding MC because I was like, "I already know what this gets me. I know exactly what I can do as a MC. I want to know what I can do in L.A. as an actress or comedian." My bread and butter stopped, and I bought a plane ticket. The day that I was supposed to land in L.A. is the day that the internship I ended up getting two months after I bought the ticket was supposed to start.

I know people, I meet people, I have people in my family, in my circle of friends — well, not in my close circle of friends because I'm like . . . I don't want to say I can't be friends with these kind of people, but we all know them. They're just like, "I would totally move to L.A. as soon as I get a job and an apartment." And you're just like, "So then I guess you're never moving to L.A."

You have to be in somebody's face to even get the opportunity.

Yes. The best advice I got was from Stacey Evans Morgan when I was jump roping between New York and L.A. and I was like, "Just keep me in mind for any projects." And she said, "In the six hours it'll take for you to get from New York to L.A., I would've already given your job away." I said, "Ooh, I'm moving to L.A."

That's real.

In the six hours? That's so real.

I was in the barbershop a couple of days ago and I was reading your book and I told one of the dudes in the barbershop, "Wow, Yvonne Orgi is royalty." You are actually Nigerian royalty.

My grandfather was the Ogbuefi of our village, which means basically, in our village, whenever there was a dispute or anything that had to be settled, everyone came to his home. Now my dad is a title chief as well, but I think there are few. Every village has their own Ogbuefi.

So do you have a crown? Can you grant wishes? I've been to Lagos, actually.

You've been to Lagos? Ain't no wishes being granted in Lagos.

It's a fun place. I was in Abuja, so we only went there for a weekend.

Abuja is more chill. Abuja is Maryland, and Lagos is Brooklyn.

Reading this book made me think about my grandma a lot because she always had scriptures. She had a clip full of scriptures just ready to go. 

So you're saying I'm saying I am a grandma? That's what I'm deducing from this.

I'm saying that you're like a newer version, but in a good way.

Walking it out Black man, walk it out.

I'm walking that out. Let me walk it out. I know you had the challenge where you read the Bible for a year and you did the YouTube videos. I was wondering, did you always have this many biblical stories in you or was it something that had to be refined for the book?

I say in the book, I was like, "This is not your grandma's Bible studies."

You're better than my grandma because she didn't put DMX into her Bible stories.

For those of you who don't know, when you get this book, there are DMX references. If you listen to the audiobook there is a bark.

DMX will always be one of my top favorite rappers. Why? Because once I listened to "It's Dark and Hell Is Hot," I always felt like there was just a battle for his heart and his soul. He knew what to do, but then he had these demons that were like, "Do you really want to do that?" It was like he had a moral compass. You could tell in his songs, he was trying to push that. And also, it's like, how many hardcore rappers are like, "Yeah, let's pray?" And you're like, "What? Let us pray?" I rock with DMX for a lot of reasons, but what was the question? Oh, did I always have that?

Here's the thing: I was raised Catholic, and so Catholicism I think gave me order and structure. Then when I turned 17, I was already a freshman at George Washington University in D.C. and I went to a bible study. It was more like a non-denominational church vibe. I got a lot of practicality, like how do you apply the things of the Bible. That really helped me understand the stories. Then it was like, well, if the Bible is supposed to be applicable to today, how do I take this story and make it relevant for my life today?

It was just kind of like, we hear these stories like, "Joseph had a coat of many [colors] on him . . ." Like, nah, nah, nah, fam. Joseph was sold into slavery because his brothers hated on him. They was hating on him. And then, when he was trying to do right, he got put in jail. That, to me, is just like, yo, everything's going wrong for this young man. What was it about his faith or his belief in whatever the dream was that he got to be like, "But I'm going to make it though." It was like, well, no, no, no. Maybe he didn't have that, but what he did have was favor. So even though the situations was trash, he, some way, somehow, always came out on top. So that's why there's a chapter in the book where it's like, "I may not win, but I always win."

Even if you look at Coco Gauff, who just won, it's like, yeah, she won the U.S. Open, and then you could look at the other young lady and be like, she lost the U.S. Open, but it's like, the day she lost, the very next day, she became number one in the world. I'm sure she would've liked the W, but it's like, I always say God gives you a backdoor blessing.

If we looking at her, we're all chanting for Coco because we wanted her to win, but at the same time it's like, well, sis, you didn't lose either. You're still the world number one. You can take that how you want to take that. The story of Joseph's gave me perspective in the midst of trash situations.

My favorite story in the Bible is The Good Samaritan. Do you have a favorite?

Oh, why?

Because the people who were supposed to help, didn't. You don't know where it's going to come from, so you can't project, or judge, or lose faith in people. The person who you think is the op might be your biggest resource, and you don't know.

And that's what my mom would always say, "You make sure you are nice to everybody you meet. You don't know if you're entertaining angels without your knowledge." 

Treat everybody like they're Jesus.

Treat everybody like they're good because you don't know who's who.

I rock with Joseph, but I think a lot of times in my life I have felt more like Gideon. Because he was minding his business. For someone who's bullied, for someone who always felt like on the outside, but in my heart of hearts knew there's more. But you could know that there's more in you but when your environment doesn't feed that moreness, you kind of feel like, "Well, maybe? I don't know." I was looking, I was looking for God to tell me "You're more." But Gideon wasn't. Gideon was like, "Hey, I'm cool with being the lowest. I'm cool with my tribe being the weakest." 

When he gets this word like, "Nah, this is what you're supposed to do," and he's like, "I want to believe you. I do. Hold on. OK, make this grass wet." "Oh, you made it wet." "OK, make it dry, and then I'll believe you." 

And then, again, this is the bamboozlement of Jesus. God's like, "Hey, I need you to go save the people. You going to go to war. By the way, you got too many people. These 3,000 need to become 300." I know. He's like, "Fam, I already told you I wasn't really a warrior like that. That's not my plan." And then it's like, "All right, now you've got 300. Cool, cool, cool. I know you thought you was going to fight with weapons. Yeah, put down your weapons and just blow the trumpet." That's when me and God are fighting, you know what I mean? That's when we are throwing balls because now you're playing with my mind.

I'm a screenwriter. We're on strike now. You're a screenwriter and an actor, so you're double striking, right? 

Double striking, yeah.

Could you talk about the future of the industry and what you would like to see? I've read stories about some artists having to sell their homes. I read Viola Davis wrote that only 1% of actors make over $50,000 a year. It's really, really, really difficult, but we can do better. 

I think people don't understand that the term "working actor," it's a job. It's a job. I think Hollywood has done a good marketing job of the glitz and the glamour, so I think most people, when they think Hollywood, they think it's glamour. But part of the people that make up Hollywood are people who are every day, living job to job, paycheck to paycheck, gig to gig. 

By the grace of God, I can be so grateful that I'm fortunate. But seven years ago, again, this book came from all of the things that I experienced just seven years ago. It's not like 20 years ago. No, this was seven years ago, fam. I remember sharing salads with my roommate, and that was because I had a dream. This strike is affecting so many people who also have a dream.

It's like, can you imagine if you're like, "Hey, I want to be a coder for a tech company," and there's no technology that can be thought about, or created, or even talked about. Or it is just like, so how do we advance? How do we move things along? I think the future of entertainment, in general, is probably going to be more global. I think what we're seeing, just the solidarity that people in the UK have, people in other places, because their structure is different. The UK, their TV is government-run. I've had a chance to go there and talk to writers and they're like, "It's a debt ceiling. It's a salary cap, in a way. Because if Network X is like, 'We already have a Black show,' it's just like, 'So all my Black show ideas have to just go into the abyss.'" And it's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I think now we have a really good opportunity of bridging that gap. One thing that I want to do specifically is to be that bridge. Because I think there's so many stories to be told. Not only of the immigrant experience, the Black experience, the international experience, it's like, the Nigerian-British experience is different than the Nigerian-American experience. The Caribbean experience, the Haitian experience, whatever, the Brooklyn experience. We always say Black is not a monolith, but I'm like, but yes, let's see more of these stories that present us not monolithically. I think that's a joy of mine in terms of the kind of work I particularly want to do.