NYPD whistleblower on why so-called "bad apple" cops are really guided by "incentives of the system"

Plenty of people who live in impoverished communities feel like they get no respect from law enforcement. And police officers who patrol those places feel like they don't get any respect from those same community members. As a result, the two sides remain twirled in what seems to be a never-ending conflict. Activist Edwin Raymond explained the danger of toxic police and community relations, and why we desperately need change, on a recent episode of "Salon Talks."

Raymond, recipient of the Commanding Officer’s Award for exceptional duty, is a 15-year veteran of the New York Police Department. Known for his appearance in the Hulu documentary "Crime and Punishment," Raymond has become one of our nation’s leading voices on criminal justice reform, encouraging his fellow officers to put community first, emphasizing that the department would not exist without people to serve.

While Raymond enjoyed success during his career, he eventually realized that his mere presence as a change advocate was not enough. This led to Raymond risking his life by publicly calling out the racist practices of the NYPD and becoming a whistleblower. Raymond did what was right, even though it cost him his career. Raymond's inspiring rise, fall and rebirth is documented in his memoir, "An Inconvenient Cop: My Fight to Change Policing in America."

You can watch my "Salon Talks" episode with Edwin Raymond here or read a Q&A of our conversation below to learn more about his true vision of what police reform in America should look like and what life is like for a nationally known whistleblower.  

The following conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

What's an "inconvenient cop"?

Basically, a cop who's not blinded by patriotism and tribalism, a cop that's able to see the detriments despite being in the system. That's very inconvenient to the status quo and the leadership that is very stubborn in keeping things the way they are, minus being visionaries and shifting policing to what we need.

You cover a lot in this book. Can just give our readers some of the basics on the premise?

There are many books written by cops, former cops, some written about the detriments, but they kind of jump right into what the issues are and what should be done. I thought because what I'm doing is so different, I thought it was crucial that the reader understands how I got to this point. This is why it's a memoir instead of just an instructional book. It goes back and it alternates between contemporary and flashback, walking the reader through what's happening when I start the police academy, and then the next chapter, I'm three years old and my mother's dying. Chapter Three, I'm back in the police academy. Chapter Four, my father's dealing with the reality of having to bury his wife and the poverty and everything else. It alternates like that for the first part of the book because I thought it's essential that the reader understands how I became the man that I am today.

You're the highest-ranking whistleblower in NYPD history. Break down the levels of whistleblowing.

I blew the whistle before even reaching the high rank, and there have been high-ranking folks, even higher-ranking folks, who have contributed to fights. But the way that I'm doing it, rising through after blowing the whistle especially, that's where you've never really seen that before.

Police officers are terrified to tell on other police officers or make statements against other police officers because it does ruin your career. Other cops, they don't want to work with you if you get out there and tell the truth. So how does one rise in the middle of that?

What I did is I studied whistleblowers before me. As far as Frank Serpico, who's like the godfather of police whistleblowing, to one of my heroes, Adhyl Polanco, who I essentially jumped on the lawsuit and became the lead plaintiff. One of the things that they didn't have was the community support, because the thinking is once you expose this information, people are going to take it and they're going to do what they need to do with it, apply pressure where it's necessary. But especially after, as we see what social media has done to attention spans, you got to hold people's hands a little bit. 

What I decided was the community support that I hoped would happen, I met with them before I blew the whistle. I explained to them who I am, what I've been doing, what I'm trying to accomplish. Some of them were like, "Yeah, nah, we're good." Others were like, "We'll see." And others were on board immediately. 

When I became a whistleblower officially through a New York Times article, as much as the police department — as much as the leadership — wanted to excommunicate me and destroy my career, too many people were watching. The people that were normally protesting police were standing shoulder to shoulder with me in press conferences. There's nothing in the playbook to deal with that.

Your dad recommended you join this profession, and even when you were younger, you were like, "Really?"

Yeah.

What was that like?

It was after school. It was so random. Unfortunately, he's no longer here. I don't know where that came from. Maybe he just thought, it's a good job, it has good benefits. But I thought he was crazy at the time. Just a few years later, I'm in the police academy. It's crazy.

How do you feel about your journey now when you get a chance to pull back a little bit and look at the 15 years you spent and the work you're doing now. What are some of the things you think about when you reflect on that whole experience?

One, wow, I can't believe we're here. I can't believe I've survived what I've survived with the retaliation and everything else from speaking out. Even before being a whistleblower, I spoke out internally and it was a nuisance to the leadership in the command that I worked in. I'm glad that there were some results. Again, not deeply planted enough, but there were some results. I do miss being there for my community, especially as a lieutenant.

That's what I wanted to know. When you talk about the conversation around what needs to be fixed and changed is so heavy, but then there has to be some other things about the profession you miss. If I was a cop, I would never be at a red light. 

Oh, those perks.

I'd be walking in a bodega, "Give me two egg sandwiches."

Yeah, it's kind of corruption. 

At a lot of stores, cops eat free, right? It's like that in the state of Maryland. They literally get it free.

It used to be that way, but that's kind of frowned upon. But there was a time if a restaurant did charge a cop you just ruined your whole business because they'll sit and ticket everyone that pulls up. They'll make sure you feel it. But those days are thankfully mostly behind us. 

But responding to an emergency, especially as a lieutenant, it meant a lot to certain communities, especially marginalized communities who don't see policing as a public good, a tax-funded service. They see police as people who harass them and violate their rights. But when Lieutenant Raymond shows up, for many folks, it's the first time they feel the true service aspect of policing. That actually hurt me because it shouldn't be this way. 

I remember as a rookie being temporarily assigned to South Brooklyn in the white community, and as I'm standing on the corner, kids, adults passing by, [saying] "Thank you for your service." I was like, "Well, that's the thing to say to cops?” That's not how I was in the hood where I was from. But it makes sense for them to say that because they get the true service.

They get the full benefits.

Exactly, what it's supposed to be. So being able to be in charge and delivering that to a demographic that unfortunately doesn't really feel that, that's something I definitely missed.

Chris Rock has a cop joke where he's talking about police officers and he's talking about a few bad apples and he says, "Some jobs can't have bad apples." He said, "What if you went to the United or Delta and they said, 'Well, most of our pilots land planes, but we have a few bad apples.'" I think you do such a good job in the book at talking about that bad-apple conversation. Could you touch on that?

A lot of the response to the issues we see with policing, it's centered on the individual, the so-called bad apple. And I saw it that way somewhat, but I have a look under the hood, a real look behind the curtain. What I found is so much of the behavior coming from cops can lead to someone dying needlessly. The behavior is not their own autonomy. They're essentially responding to the incentives of the system. That's where the focus needs to be. It's closer to the root of the problem. We can't go too far downstream. We have to get as close as possible, focusing on the system and challenging, asking ourselves, “Why did that cop make those decisions to do that?" Instead of thinking we have the answer, "Because it's who they are."

What I've learned is the system — because I watched people who I was in the police academy with for six months who I know are not terrible people — but when I would back them up out on patrol, I don't recognize them. I would pull them over later and say, "Yeah, what was that earlier?" It was like, "Oh, I'm on vacation this month. I got vacation this month. So I got to just quickly get my activity out the way." This is when I really start to understand how the demands of the leadership, what's incentivized those numbers — arrest, summons, and stop and frisk — is much more a determining factor to why police behave the way they do than what their own biases are.

This is why that conversation is so important, because if we really pull back, there are bad guys in every profession. I think people get frustrated when they have the conversation with police officers because there are so many cops who won't say, "Yo, I got a partner or a coworker who's out of control. I don't know what's wrong with them." I think that's part of the problem. When you go back and look at the numbers like stop and frisk and things like that, and when you're talking about how Black and brown people are more affected when it comes to drug laws and all of these different things, then we're having a real conversation about the system and we're taking it away from individual people.

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, there's a few individuals where it matters — the leadership. One thing I wasn't prepared for when I first became a whistleblower was all of the support from officers, especially those high up in the ranks. When we would have these conversations, it was like, "Yeah, man, the job, you know how the job is." And I'm like, "You a chief. You are the job." You know what I mean?

But they were scared to do what you did.

Exactly. But it's like they didn't understand their own power. I always think about the movie "Coming to America" ... King Jaffe had come to New York, he realized that his son did not agree with an arranged marriage, and as they're going back to Africa, he's basically saying, "These have been our traditions. Who am I to do anything about it?" And his wife goes, "You're the king."

Understand the power that you're in when you are a chief. They don't understand their own power. It's a handful of individuals that actually keep the wheels turning, but they have been indoctrinated to believe that this is what policing is. This is how policing needs to operate. Especially because, let's be honest, in certain communities, we do have serious issues with crime, but the response is not what it should be. Sadly, the diversity thing isn't the answer either, because the system has a way of making sure the people of color who ascend are those who are not going to upset the apple cart.

How did you feel when you found out that it was going to be your last day? What was going through your mind when you started to leave?

It was bittersweet. On one end, I'm ready to take on this new initiative, but it did hit me like, "Wow, this is it. This uniform will never come on again.” Fifteen years. I became a man in this position. I was 22 when I joined the police department, 15 years. This is unbelievable, but I'm ready for this other part of the journey.

What was your mindset like? You weren't on the street, you were a lieutenant.

Yeah, it was just like, "Wow, it's all about to happen. It's about to happen." There's risk involved because I retired five years earlier than I'm supposed to.

That's the rule in New York? You do 20?

Twenty, yeah. You don't get a pension if you retire early. You have to wait until what would've been your 20th year. I have no health benefits.

You get partial.

You don't get 50, you get like 43% instead of 50% of what your final salary was. So I'm not losing everything.

But you're losing a lot.

Oh, it's a lot. I think about it every now and then, but I'm going to be OK. I have to be OK. I'm a man on the mission since I was a teenager really, you think about it. And I'm getting it done.

There are a lot of young people of color entering the profession right now, and they feel the same way you felt. They're young. They don't maybe necessarily understand the dynamics of everything that you've learned throughout your years wearing a badge. What do you think they should know coming in or what kind of message do you have for them right now?

You have to stand firm in who you are and don't compromise your integrity. If it doesn't make sense, that's your intuition talking. Do it in a way that you're not going to, it's within legal parameters, of course, but don't lose yourself in this. Don't get sucked into the system forgetting who you are and where your own personal values are. 

I watched colleagues who I knew from the academy were not terrible people. Some of them won't say anything to me. Today most of them are supporters and when we have conversations about the way that they used to police, they're like, "Listen man, I signed up for a job. I wasn't thinking like you. I was just trying to pay my bills. This is what they wanted of me. I didn't think I was violating anyone because it's not like I was making it up. They were committing the infractions. I wasn't paying attention to the fact that in Park Slope, three miles away, the same infraction wouldn't be enforced."

It's just littering. It's just not paying for the subway. But I'm not sitting here thinking about the fact that other folks don't get treated like this. I'm just knowing you did it technically. So I'm a cop. I have every legal right to stop you and arrest you. I wasn't basically connecting all the dots. 

One of the analogies I used in the book is an assembly line. If we're building the Model T Ford, you put on the windshield, I put in the transmission. Despite our individual repetitive tasks, we know what the final product is: the vehicle. In policing, people have a repetitive task, but they don't see the bigger picture of what they're contributing to. They just keep doing their repetitive task. When you zoom out and see the picture for what it is, you realize the mission statement of what policing is supposed to be, theoretically, is not what Black and brown communities are getting.

What's the perfect system look like for you?

You know what's crazy? Some people might say perfection is impossible. I would agree with that, but the fact that there are people who already receive the system that I think is needed is more than enough proof that we can do it. Marcus Garvey said, "What a man has done, man can do again." The fact that white communities get that type of policing, there's no reason why…

That's a perfect system for me.

It's literally what the white people already get, as crazy as that sounds.

Before I got promoted to Sergeant, I was working at Barclays. It was my job to scan the station. I'm watching movement, I'm chitchatting with my colleagues, but I noticed this young Asian young boy and he's standing by the turnstiles and he's on the pay side so he could go and take the train, but after about 45 minutes, I walk over to him and says, "Is everything all right?" He says, "I'm lost." I said, "I made eye contact with you at least 30 times. You didn't think you can come to me?" That hurt, man. He didn't think that when he saw me and my colleagues, he didn't think of help. He didn't think of safety. He didn't think we were someone to help him solve the issues and that really bothered me, man. 

But at the same end, in the very same station on another day, another lost kid. Coincidentally, I made the connection that were both lost kids. We were helping him. But then there was on the adjacent side of the platform, there was a crowd forming with cameras. So I'm like, "What's going on?" And they're like, "We just want to make sure he's safe." And I'm like, "The kid is lost, man." I get it. That's how untrusting people are of the system. So the kid that should have come up and said, "We need your help." He didn't see me there and saw me as help. That burns, but then the kid that we were helping bystanders were like, "What does this cop do with this kid?" Imagine that limbo.

What's next for you? Politics?

Man, listen, I ran for office based on what the people were asking of me. Also, a lot of what I am putting forward, we need brave elected officials to actually make happen in legislation. So I figured I didn't wait to be the good cop, the cop that people needed. Why should I wait to try to find the elected officials? I'll be that elected official.

The election didn't go in my favor, but now I'm thinking, would it have limited me? In the larger picture of what I believe I can accomplish it might've limited my potential. So what's next exactly? I don't know, but what I do know is I want to empower others because over 2,000 cops have reached out from all over the country, some even from other nations, and the type of guidance that they need, I'm like, "Somebody has to be there to guide this fight," so just stay tuned and you'll see me out there.