Alex Gibney is the Academy Award, Grammy, and Emmy Award-winning director, writer, and producer of "Taxi to the Dark Side," "Enron" and "Going Clear," among many other films and countless accolades.
Gibney's latest project, a two-part documentary, “Wise Guy: David Chase and The Sopranos,” tells the story of making the hit HBO show "The Sopranos," now streaming on Max. The film is a collection of interviews between Gibney and "Sopranos" creator David Chase.
I spoke to Gibney about his connection to the show a week before the documentary aired and why he thinks it's so special to so many people.
"The three-way relationship between two real people and one fictional character. And that is David Chase, Jim Gandolfini and Tony Soprano," Gibney explained. "They had a kind of peculiar three-way relationship that got very deep and sometimes a little bit uncomfortable for all of them. But it did something extraordinary for the show itself because it made Tony a really, really, really extraordinary and rich character."
That was the magic of Tony Soprano: you loved the way he loved his family, even though he was an abusive cheater; the manner in which he valued loyalty, even though he wasn't loyal to anyone; the way he showed up for his guys when they were in need, even though he wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in their heads. Viewers never thought they could fall in love with someone so complex and visibly evil, but we did, and we love the show for that.
Gibney and I discussed the complex history of "The Sopranos," the challenges of casting such a dynamic series and why we may never see programming like the legendary show again.
Our conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Congratulations on this wonderful new documentary. The making of "The Sopranos" seems super relevant to the situation we're facing today, where it's more and more difficult to get unusual shows off the ground. So it seemed like a way in to understanding this show from the inside out. I was wondering what made you want to put out "Wise Guy?"
I'm interested in the creative process and how you go from something very personal — in this case, David Chase's relationship with his mother, who was a very difficult woman — and how that becomes a gangster show about a guy who's having panic attacks and has to secretly engage in therapy. So how does that happen? How do you write it? How do you cast it? How does it get made on a network when so many others were hostile to it? So it was that part of just being super interested in the creative process that really brought me to this film.
You mentioned casting. As a fan, I was so inspired by the segment that you did on casting, just pulling back and looking at it, it feels perfect. The only other shows that I think compare . . . there are a lot of great shows, but when I think about shows that are cast so well . . . I think about "The Wire." I think about "The Bear." What do you think viewers should know about the struggle to find the right Tony or the right Carmela and how you lay that out?
I mean, the struggle is that you've written a character that you believe in, but then inevitably the act of casting somebody to play that character is a mysterious process because they're going to bring something extra that you had never considered. And the question is, when does that something extra . . . when does that unique quality both mesh with what you had thought about as who that character is, but then bring something entirely fresh that you hadn't even considered that seems so exciting that you want to go there. 'Cause now suddenly there's a mystery on top of a mystery, on top of a mystery. Where's this character going to take me? Where's this actor going to take this character that I've started to write? That to me is what seems so exciting about it. And sometimes it's just little things. Like David said, he cast Drea de Matteo just because of the way she said the word ow.
She's like, "Ow-wah."
Yeah. And that was just so funny to him that he felt that she had already gotten some place way beyond where he was writing the character. So it's that mysterious process of just . . . There's nothing to be done except sit in a room and see how you respond to the performance of an actor who's put in front of you.
"The thing that HBO wondered was, can we cast as our lead a really bad guy, but he's a bad guy you love? And then you have to wonder, why do I love this guy so much if what he does is so bad?"
I can't think of another anti-hero who we all rooted for in television before Tony Soprano. Am I wrong?
No. That was the thing that HBO wondered . . . can we cast as our lead a really bad guy, but he's a bad guy you love? And then you have to wonder, why do I love this guy so much if what he does is so bad? Or you go along thinking why he's so charming, he's so much fun and then he brutally kills somebody sometimes seemingly for no reason. You're thinking, whoa, how is it that I can like that guy? So that gets at the essence of the mystery of who we are as human beings. And it seems to me that's what makes the show so powerful.
Like "Six Feet Under" and "The Wire," "The Sopranos" was so original. It was so different. And you talk about this in the film, because HBO was still trying to find its footing. They were still trying to identify themselves as a network. And as I pull back and look at a lot of the new stuff, it almost feels like it was the end of an era. Do you think something like "The Sopranos" could be created today?
Well, it's hard right now, but I think what's going to happen is a show like "The Sopranos" is going to be so original and maybe it's going to come out on a network or a platform that's different than the platforms we see now. That's the other thing you have to remember about back in the day. In 1990, the TV universe was dominated by the big three or big four networks. They were in the business of selling audiences to advertisers, which meant that they didn't really want to offend people. They wanted people to like stuff, okay, but they didn't want people to feel either passionately about it or they didn't want to offend anybody. Along comes HBO and they don't care about offending some people. They want to speak directly to consumers and directly to the viewers. And the viewers buy the shows. They're interested in the shows themselves, not the products that are being advertised. And so suddenly you created a new paradigm and there was an interest by the network to make a few shows that people would feel passionate about, and we just got to get to that place again.
Yeah, I was surprised in the film when it came up that Martin Scorsese wasn't a fan of the show.
Well, he thought, what do mobsters have to do with suburban New Jersey? But David's experience was very different. Marty grew up in New York and David grew up in rural New Jersey. He saw the mob there. They were there and they were for real. So, I just think it was two different visions and that was kind of the originality of the vision because suddenly it was the gangster next door. It wasn't the guy who was lurking around the street corner in the hustle and bustle of the big city. He was the guy who was mowing the lawn.
David Chase and David Simon have a lot in common when it comes to not trusting . . . I'm not going to say not trusting . . . but not hiring TV writers. Maybe they found the secret to great TV is that you gotta stay away from television writers.
Yeah, I mean, David hired some TV writers, but I think he hired folks who were both skilled writers and also were willing to invest emotionally. And obviously, they went on to great things, like Terry Winter and Matt Weiner both went on to do great shows themselves. But I think it was that willingness to dig deep and not settle. That's what, for David, was the way in.
What is "Sopranos" ranked for you in talking about the greatest shows of all time?
Well, it's always hard to say GOAT because there are different reasons for different shows. But I think "The Sopranos" would be it.
As a filmmaker, was it easy for you to make a film talking to another filmmaker and just going through that process and what happened behind that project?
Well, that was fun. I mean, we have to talk shop, but I think — as you saw from having seen the film — just for fun, I constructed a facsimile of Melfi's office and I also got personal with David, which was also interesting. So it was that combination of talking shop and then just understanding who he was as a human being.
Are you a fan of any of the newer versions of "The Sopranos" coming out?
I saw "The Many Saints of Newark." I mean, I liked it. I liked "The Sopranos" better.
Okay, because I heard they were going to do two more.
I don't think so. I don't think David is going to go into to that territory. David's at work on a couple of feature scripts, which are pretty great, and I'm looking forward to seeing those.
Do you think the world is ready for a reboot, or can we just go ahead and re-watch?
Let's just watch it again.
What's next for you?
I'm working on a doc about Elon Musk.
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