"The thing behind the thing": Malcolm Gladwell and Kenya Barris find inspiration in a similar place

Through television shows like "Black-ish," "#blackAF," and "Grown-ish," and movies like "You People," Kenya Barris has become one of the most influential creative voices on how we talk about race in America. The magic of Barris’ work is his ability to explore complex issues like race and class through a comedic lens and make it accessible to wide audiences.

His shows and films are funny enough to be on networks like ABC and Netflix, but still edgy enough to piss off people like President Donald Trump. Trump once tweeted in response to an episode of "Black-ish" about the fury there would be if a show was called "White-ish."

When I sat down with Barris on a recent episode of "Salon Talks," he shared with me how his humor around race is about something deeper and the reason that he and "The Tipping Point" and "Outliers" author Malcolm Gladwell struck up an unlikely friendship.

"We both realized that we like coming at stuff from the behind thing, the thing behind the thing. That was our connection," Barris said. The friendship has led to their newest venture, “The Unusual Suspects,” an Audible Original that they co-host. Barris and Gladwell interview artists, athletes and influential people who aren't just talented, but are changing the world through their work. Some of the guests include former professional basketball player Sue Bird, music producer Dr. Dre, and Maryland Governor Wes Moore.

“I think the person who I was most blown away [by was] Wes Moore,” Barris said, “I think Wes Moore could be president. I think he should have ran for president. No offense to Kamala.”

Watch the "Salon Talks" episode with Kenya Barris here, or read a Q&A of our conversation below, to learn more about Barris working with Gladwell after being a huge fan, his creative process, and what's behind his next project, a remaking of "The Truman Show."

The following conversation has been lightly edited for clarity and length.

You and Malcolm Gladwell are a great team. Did people see you guys as an unlikely partnership at first?

I was a huge fan. “The Tipping Point” changed my life. People like us, we read those books and you start that whole 10,000 hour rule and stuff like that. He doesn't realize that the hood catches onto that stuff. We love that s**t. It started saying stuff that we already knew but didn't know how to put in [words]. 

I saw him at a restaurant called Gjelina in LA. I remembered his picture and he was sitting out eating. I walked up to him and I was like, “I never do this,” as people always say, but I really don't ever do that. When you see a writer it's like seeing a porn star, and I say that because you've seen somebody who you have this crazy intimate relationship with that you wouldn't normally see. When you read a book, it's this relationship that you are way more invested in than [with] an actor, than a singer. I went up to him, and he could not have been cooler. We struck up a friendship and we were like, "We have to do something."

He really supported me on “#blackAF.” He called and he was like, "This is my favorite show. This is one of the best comedies,” and put it out there at the right time. I was like, “Malcolm Gladwell is watching this.” We started talking and we both realized that we like coming at stuff from the behind thing, the thing behind the thing. That was our connection.

Did you ever bump heads on philosophies or approach?

No, we actually liked the fact that we came at s**t from different places. We ultimately ended up at the same place of what's the thing behind the thing, but he's a pro, so it was like playing in his world.

It's a very interesting guest list. How do you guys select the guests? 

We wanted to make sure that we didn't get the people who were on the podcast rotation. My one was Dr. Dre, because Dre just doesn't do [podcasts] and he is my hero. I think [Malcolm’s] big one was Ursula Burns, who people don't know, but she's her, you know what I'm saying? We wanted to have people who have affected our lives in crazy, crazy ways, but we might not know about them. You might know their name, you don't know exactly what they did, but they had an impact on the entire world.

What's the biggest surprise from a guest of the season? Who messed your head up?

Dre in a lot of ways—self-taught, can play a trumpet, might qualify for the Olympics in archery, can play a piano—self-taught. [He] is producing the craziest albums you've ever heard from people you would never have thought about, and just was a real emotional dude in a way. You think N.W.A., but he's a super contemplative dude. 

I think the person who I was most blown away [by was] Wes Moore. I think Wes Moore could be president. I think he should have ran for president, no offense to Kamala. Wes Moore is charismatic — a brother really, really, really took a state and turned it around — and has a plan for anything you talk to him about. I read his book, “The Other Wes Moore,” and it changed [me]. He went and found somebody with the same exact name, same neighborhood, [and showed] how easy it is to take two different paths.

I'm in LA right now, we're having the fires. There's this amazing filmmaker, Nadia Hallgren, I want her to direct a documentary called “A Tale of Two Cities.” Right now I want to turn the cameras on and see the Palisades and Altadena, and see how the fire [damage] is handled in these two cities. So it's a bite off of “The Other Wes Moore.”

Ava DuVernay's interview was mind-blowing to me. To find out that she had to raise outside funds to be able to get “Origin” made was shocking. It seemed like it surprised you too, or is that something that you've been through?

I was blown away by that. That book was one of the best books I've read in a long, long, long, long time, and it screamed documentary. The fact that she made it into a narrative was really interesting, and that she had to go raise money after the success she has. But it probably was the best thing because she got to do what she wanted to do with it.

She also said something powerful about what it actually takes to get something made. Making it through those notes and being able to look at that finished project and say, "Okay, it is partially still mine a little." Can you speak to that? I imagine making something like “Black-ish,” those notes from ABC were coming.

They say a movie gets made three times. Once when it's written, once when it's shot, once when it's edited. But I think in TV, once you have a little bit of success, it stops a little bit more. Films are completely different. You’ve got to get the

script written, then you got to get somebody to make it, then after you make it, you have to go [edit], and at all these points there's notes. Script, [there is] a ton of notes. When you're getting it made the studio's right there, ton of notes. When you're editing it, ton of notes. What you end up with in a movie — unless you're a Scorsese or Adam McKay or Fincher — is a big difference from what started off as a script. I think Ava, in raising the money herself, probably had a lot less of that than a normal filmmaker would have to do.

With all of your success, do critics matter? Can they still strike a nerve and piss you off?

Of course they matter, but I feel like they matter less. I used to look at the Tomatometer, now I look at the audience score. I did a movie, “Shaft,” that I think is the champion in the difference between the Tomatometer and the audience. It was 95 to 17 or something like that. Critics go into movies and if they have an agenda, they will take that agenda with them.

I feel like ultimately, I go to movies like I go to school. I feel like you’ve got to go see a movie. I don't know if you ever saw “Popstar.” To me, “Popstar” is one of the most slept-on movies. It was Andy Samberg, crazy, crazy, crazy, funny. Did not get a good tomato score. You’ve got to go see a movie for yourself.

A huge component of your art deals with conversations around race. I would argue that shows like “Black-ish” and films like “You People” have contributed to making those conversations easier for people outside of the culture. You watch the Obama episode of “Black-ish” or the Juneteenth episode of “#blackAF,” and you get a glimpse into our experience. When I see the power of the art, I cut the television on and I say, "What happened in the 2024 election?"

Right. I think that shows the different opinions we have as people. When Trump had a rally here in Madison [Square Garden], they said, “There’s a whole island of garbage out there, it’s called Puerto Rico.” I was like, “Oh he’s done. He can’t say that. [In] New York? He can’t say that.” The next day, from what I understand, his Latino voters went up. 

I think there's a psychology that I'm not aware of, that certain people are aware of who understand how to manipulate things and get things going. Friends of mine will do movies and I'm like, “This is crazy. This is the craziest movie.” And then next thing I know, it breaks records.

Tyler [Perry] is a great example. Tyler is my boy. He told me he knows his group and has proved it time and time and time and time again. He was like, "F**k the tomatoes." He doesn't care what the tomatoes are. He just did a movie on Amazon, it [was] the single biggest subscriber event in Amazon history. More people subscribed to Amazon because of this movie – that people were talking s**t about – than any other movie in the history of the platform.

He super serves his niche, he knows his audience, he knows what he's doing. I feel like there's a certain form of brilliance to that. If you know how to hit your audience and super-serve your audience, you can win every time.

Are you worried that Trump will make you create a show called “White-ish” and then “#whiteAF?”

He did bring me up. He was saying how racist he thought "Black-ish" was. He was like, "If someone did a show called White-ish, how racist..." And I was like, that's called every show ever. That's called “Friends.”

What’s next for you?

I think the thing I'm most excited about right now on the film side is, I'm doing a re-imagination of “The Truman Show.” It's a Black version of “The Truman Show” where Jamal Truman is a kid who grew up in the hood, and the hood doesn't really exist.

The hood is a construct that was created by this company for people to watch at home, like, “Could you imagine living like Jamal lives?” That's how it feels in the hood sometimes. It can't be this much police shootings. When you start looking at it from that aspect, you start feeling like it is sort of a construct, so that is something I'm super excited about.